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Thread: Chelmer Road Race, 07 April 2013

  1. #11

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    Will we not get to the postion that larger clubs with riders getting more points end up filling a field with 8,9,10. riders. We could end up with say 5 club/teams racing. You wont get the smaller clubs putting on a race if the can't have a member of the club getting a ride.

    What's wrong with the Status Quo? Higher cat riders from the London area could always ride the SERRL. No further for them than some of us traveling from Norfolk.

  2. #12
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    Holmesy, possibly you are correct however 3rd cat have the potential of getting in every ERRL road race as there are only 34, 234 and E123 events and given that almost all circuit races are 34 or E123 it is pretty hard for the average 2nd to get in a race let alone get any points!

    Surely it is better to have the best riders in the races regardless of team. Surely after recent events it is safer new riders to learn the trade at circuit races, gain points, learn to ride in a group, etc

    Have you seen the entry fee for a serrl race? Its cheaper for 4-5 riders to go in one car to Belgium!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevegriffiths View Post

    Joan - on a separate note, do you know if there are any circuits or could a circuit be found in the eastern region that can have closed roads/rolling closure to allow for youth and adult road races . . . or is that a complete no go!!

    Many thanks,
    Steve
    Steve, you would need to address that matter to Derek Lusher, but I cannot see the Police allowing a rolling road closure on a domestic event. BC would not sanction a youth event on anything but a totally closed circuit.
    Joan Potts

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevegriffiths View Post
    Holmesy, possibly you are correct however 3rd cat have the potential of getting in every ERRL road race as there are only 34, 234 and E123 events and given that almost all circuit races are 34 or E123 it is pretty hard for the average 2nd to get in a race let alone get any points!
    It's definitely a matter of balancing the various considerations.

    One suggestion is that in Reg As organisers be freed from having to include 4th Cats, who make up 10% of this field at the expense of riders like you Steve. We could amend the selection rule like this:

    "In the event of a full field of ERRL riders equal representation to be enforced (i.e. to select the field one rider taken from each ERRL club in turn then second rider etc. until field is full,

    except that the organiser may disregard 4th Category riders entered in a Regional A race in order to give preference to ERRL riders of higher categories.

    Riders to be selected according to Licence points (indicated on their entry form unless otherwise specified by Club secretary of the riders club under a single cover by letter before the closing date). The number and selection of reserve riders is at the discretion of the organiser. There must be no more than 25% of the main field as allowed under the BC Technical Regulations. They should not be listed alphabetically in name or club order."

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsie View Post
    Steve, you would need to address that matter to Derek Lusher, but I cannot see the Police allowing a rolling road closure on a domestic event. BC would not sanction a youth event on anything but a totally closed circuit.
    Elveden. 3.5mile road circuit on open closed road, already running youth races with lead and following cars.

  6. #16
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    Default BC online entry + season points

    Quote Originally Posted by pottsie View Post
    I have seen the spread sheet for this event and it shows each riders points for 2012 & 2013, there is also a column for the total of the two years points. Maybe Michael can inform us if this was the spreadsheet from the BC Website or one he has made up himself.
    The online system gives the organiser the option of adding custom fields to the entry form that the rider has to complete. The fields can be made mandatory so the rider cannot complete the online application without having entered relevant data in each field. I used that facility to create two mandatory fields: [Points 2012] and [Points 2013] so the applicant had to provide the points scored from this and last season exactly as he would do filling in the original BC paper entry form.

    In this way I had the rider's points for the last two seasons as part of the raw data I downloaded. I did not have to look up points in a separate data file generated by BC. I did, however, have to use the raw data download option to get the points.

    The other benefit of this is that a few days before the entry deadline I sent an e-mail to all applicants (using the online system that was dead easy) inviting them to give me this season's current points tally in case they had scored points after having entered my race online. I had about 30 replies with names of events and dates and then updated the 2013 points for each rider. In that way I got the strongest field I could possibly have on the day entry closed.

    I would wholeheartedly recommend that other organisers create similar custom fields because it will make their job so much easier. Of course, it is not necessary to go the extra mile and ask for the latest points as I did. I was curious about how much additional workload I would have from it. It was not bad and considering the online system had completed offloaded me from the time it takes to type in name, club, DOB, BC no, etc. of all applicants, I could afford the extra time.

    The Chelmer Road Race had the strongest field possible the day entries closed. The average points tally for the selected 70 riders were 53.4 points, not bad for an early season event. Strongest based on points that is. Had the club competition not ruled the average points would have been higher.
    Last edited by RostRider; 08-04-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  7. #17
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    Default Results of the Chelmer Road Race 2013

    I attach a file with the results of today's race won by Lee Rowe who entered on the line.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsie View Post
    ERRL Rule 11

    In the event of a full field of ERRL riders equal representation to be enforced (i.e. to select the field one rider taken from each ERRL club in turn then second rider etc. until field is full. Riders to be selected according to Licence points (indicated on their entry form unless otherwise specified by Club secretary of the riders club under a single cover by letter before the closing date). The number and selection of reserve riders is at the discretion of the organiser. There must be no more than 25% of the main field as allowed under the BC Technical Regulations. They should not be listed alphabetically in name or club order.

    BC Tech Reg: The field shall be composed of the best riders entered, the selection being based on current form.
    To my mind this says it all. However, if one wants to understand the thinking behind a points only selection it offers little explanation.

    Many riders (not just those who participate in ERRL forum debates) feels that a higher category rider is a better rider, full stop, than a lower category rider. This is true because otherwise one could claim than B Wiggins is no better a cyclist than a 4th category beginner. The fact than Sir Viggo has made it all the way to the top of top of professional cycling must make him a better rider.

    "You are never better than your last race".

    We all know this is true even if the reality of it bites sometimes. It does not matter how well you raced last year because it is this year that matters and form can disappear frighteningly quickly regardless of the level you were at last season. Sir Viggo makes sure that does not happen to him. You have to accept that you do NOT deserve to be in higher category if you cannot keep up or barely keep up with the riders of that category. You have to prove yourself worthy of staying in your category by scoring a minimum of points each season (not a total over two seasons): Category 2 requires 25 pts, category 1 requires 100 pts and Elite demands 300 pts.

    My point is that unless you score the required minimum of 25 pts being a category 2 rider then you are not really a 2nd cat rider, you are a 3rd cat rider regardless of last season's accomplishments. At each level (category) your abilities are judged against your peers and not against those below you. I think that is fair. It is part of what drives our eagerness to compete and not just have a pleasant day out with the boys.

    Many people seem to overlook that the points system is actually rigged in favour of the higher categories by having different points bands. Riders who can compete in events covered by band 1 will gain 100 points from a win whereas one level below a road race covered by band 2 only provides 60 points for a win. Another level down, band 3 only gives 30 points for a win and band 4 only gives 15 points.

    There are also more points available to identical race positions the higher the level. Thus band 1 gives 29 points for a 10th place but band 4 only offers 1 point for the same position. The points even reach further down in the upper bands, to the 20th position in band 1, to the 15th in band 3 and only to the 10th in band 4 and 5.

    Bear in mind that BC does not appear to impose a maximum field size that differs between points bands. With 60 riders in each category of event, each rider has the same chance statistically of winning regardless of their level because they are all competing at the level they belong to. Once you are a 2nd cat rider you are by definition as likely to win a regional A race as you were to win a regional B race when you were 3rd cat. You are always judged against your peers.

    When defining the strongest field by reference to points only there is therefore a weighting built in that favours the higher category rider over a lower category one because for the same relative performance a 2nd cat rider will gain more points than a 3rd cat rider whether he wins or earns a 10th place.

    What can be hard to swallow is that this system assumes that all riders within their category are near enough the same level to make every competition a fair and even one. We all know this is not reality but each one of us has the possibility of bettering ourselves and get up to speed quite literally. A busy working and family life may remove that possibility but that does mean the BC points system is poor. It only means that we have less time to train in, that's all.

    So training hard one season and getting promoted is not a resting place. It is not a case of "having made it" although it may feel like that. On the contrary, you will have to work even harder to stay with the higher category where all you competitors are winners exactly as you are. Naturally competition sharpens up.

    My conclusion is that where two riders are equally strong within their respective categories, then the higher category rider will score more points by getting the same placing as the lower category rider and hence he will be selected for the next race instead of the 3rd cat rider. Therefore rider category is irrelevant.

    QED ;-)
    Last edited by RostRider; 08-04-2013 at 10:07 AM.

  9. #19
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    I don't agree. IMO rider category should be the first priority and then points gained, because gaining points in a national b is a lot harder than it is in a regional a or regional b, even with the weighting of extra points. Some of the rides I am most proud of got me 6th to 10th place in a national b and would have been good enough for me to win regional a races riding that well.

    In summary getting any points as a 1st cat is pretty hard let alone getting 100 to keep it, therefore going down a class to 2nd because you did not get the 100 points and then having a 3rd cat selected ahead of you is not the best rider getting selected.

    Either way, thanks for putting on a good race last weekend, and long may i have enough points for me not to have to worry about chasing them to get into the races I want to race.

  10. #20
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    Default Field selection

    I don't disagree that competing in the higher categories demands more from a rider than at the lower levels. I think that is the whole point of doing it. The satisfaction gained from being able to compete at e.g. Nat. A level. However, once you turn 1st cat, that is the baseline you have to be judged against. Never mind how it compares to 2nd, 3rd or 4th cat. It is not relevant. Your racing universe is is Cat. 1 and you should be judged accordingly.

    Should you get relegated with 40 to 99 points in the bag you would still be selected before any 3rd cat rider for the next race and ahead of quite a lot of 2nd cat. riders as well. If you have less points than that I could argue that perhaps you were not really a 1st cat rider but someone who were lucky enough to sneak into a category he didn't quite have the ability for.

    So when you race always think that points are necessary whatever your level. You cannot rest on your laurels and claim that you should be prioritised over riders a category below you simply because you managed to elevate yourself into a higher category two seasons ago. After all it takes a whole season to get relegated whereas promotion can be a lot more rapid.

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