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Thread: Club TT - Bottisham E33/10 - 28.08.14 - "September Plate" (Club 10' Championship)

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by WesUllrich View Post
    I see- I didn't realise the medals were 'prizes'. Something or the Comm meeting.

    Duncan, no organiser knows how many people will show up. We've had 15 CCC women competing this year, so we realisically could have had twice or more show up last week. The idea that recognition should only be given in proportion to numbers is nonsense. You want awards based on merit? Fields are measured in quality, not only quantity alone. How do you quantify all this? You can't, so the only fair thing to do is to recognise the podium, Youth and Junior races should often have very low numbers- should you only recognise the winner of those too? If we are to encourage women's cycling there needs to be parity. There were some mens TT's this year where (no offense to those who did ride) none of the faster people showed up, but its not as if we awarded them less points because of it.

    In fact, by your logic, since Julia was the only women who competed for the Sept Plate in the 'proper' TT category, you imply that she should not have gotten a prize at all, since that would be "a bit of a joke" as you say.
    Sorry for annoying you with 'winging' that people should be treated equally Duncan. Oh, and if I bothered you by suggesting that club members volunteer once in a while. Armchair pontificators like you are quick to critisize when people put effort into doing something for the club, and you point out how to do it 'better'. Put up or shut up.
    On average there are very few women competing in the time trials over a course of the season. Hence their prizes should reflect this in my opinion. If we find over time popularity increases then the prizes should be increased accordingly. This has already happened since we went from no prizes to what we have now. Quality of a field on average will be in direct relation to the number of riders entering (national championships usually have a full field whereas chipper 10s often struggle to get 40 riders). If you look at the Morris shield there were I think roughly 19 men who did 10 rides and only 4 women.

    Re the volunteering I think it is pointless moaning at everyone who rides in a time trial. If you are a regular then yes I think you should help out. When I was racing regularly I did this and I've also marshalled in open events, ECCA and road races for the record (even when I've never ridden a road race in my life and have no interest in it - in fact I don't even really agree with holding road races without reasonable road closures). The vast majority of entrants in the time trials ride a couple of events and probably aren't that bothered whether the series runs or not. We already have a rule that means you can't get shield points unless you help twice. You could try and make it a closed shop for regulars if you wanted (e.g. you have to have helped twice in the previous or current season before you can ride) but I think all you'd do is reduce the field to about 10-15 riders a week (and perhaps 2 of them might be women).

  2. #22
    3rd Cat MartinC's Avatar
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    Re Jans Prize list

    Where scratch like the Morris shield is open to everyone, and then there is an additional ladies prize list. Is this also the case for the September plate (and if so should it read as below) ?

    Men/Women:
    1st
    2nd
    3rd

    Woman:
    1st

    Is this fair or not?
    Last edited by MartinC; 03-09-2014 at 04:16 PM. Reason: clarity

  3. #23

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    Duncan - I suppose what it all boils down to is that if things are done your way people may not be happy (BAD) and if we did things the way Wes and I are suggesting some people would be happy (GOOD), some wouldn't care (WHATEVER) and no one would really care if you cared at all (LOL). Incidentally what should Paralympic events with few entrants do Duncan?

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinC View Post
    Re Jans Prize list

    Where scratch like the Morris shield is open to everyone, and then there is an additional ladies prize list. Is this also the case for the September plate (and if so should it read as below) ?

    Men/Women:
    1st
    2nd
    3rd

    Woman:
    1st

    Is this fair or not?
    This is absolutely correct. The September Plate makes no statement on gender. A few years ago there was no separate woman's prize. I think it was Jan that instigated the Cole Cup competition. I make no comment about fairness though.

    How many places to go down to is always problematic, we don't do gold, silver and bronze for juniors either, this again is due to lack of participation.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly View Post
    Duncan - I suppose what it all boils down to is that if things are done your way people may not be happy (BAD) and if we did things the way Wes and I are suggesting some people would be happy (GOOD), some wouldn't care (WHATEVER) and no one would really care if you cared at all (LOL). Incidentally what should Paralympic events with few entrants do Duncan?
    You mean Wes might be happy for a short period before finding some other rule that the club has had for ages that he wishes to change for personal benefit? I didn't make any of these rules up or have any input into them. They've been decided for the committee and have been in place for a number of years. If you do any open events you'll find very few women's prizes also.

    Sport is largely funded by TV rights and the fact of the matter is that mens non-disabled sport gets more viewers. Do you think more people want to watch Usain Bolt, the T38 100m paralympic final or women's netball? This is why women's cycling events are non-existent - there is no cash for them because there aren't the viewers to pay for it. Most of them only exist due to subsidies from men's events or being tagged onto the back of the men's events. Why are there less viewers interested in watching these events? Well largely I'd say because the majority of viewers of sport (and participants) are men - women just aren't as interested and people like to watch things they can equate to (wow I couldn't do that). So men watching women's / disabled sport doesn't really work perhaps except for extreme cases (e.g. Paula Radcliffe). Why aren't women as interested in sport in the first place? Another good question - I'd say probably down to evolutionary reasons. If you look at something like the Hadza people who are the nearest thing we have to the way we think ancient humans lived, the men go out and hunt and the women gather roots, berries etc. I think sport is a direct modern day replacement for hunting so its no surprise really.

    I could start up a choir for tone-deaf people - they might be the best tone deaf singers in the world who practice all hours and are thoroughly dedicated. They might enjoy every minute of it and fair play to them if that's what they want to do. But who would want to pay to listen to them?
    Last edited by Duncan Murphy; 04-09-2014 at 03:11 PM.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Murphy View Post
    You mean Wes might be happy for a short period before finding some other rule that the club has had for ages that he wishes to change for personal benefit? I didn't make any of these rules up or have any input into them. They've been decided for the committee and have been in place for a number of years. If you do any open events you'll find very few women's prizes also.

    Sport is largely funded by TV rights and the fact of the matter is that mens non-disabled sport gets more viewers. Do you think more people want to watch Usain Bolt, the T38 100m paralympic final or women's netball? This is why women's cycling events are non-existent - there is no cash for them because there aren't the viewers to pay for it. Most of them only exist due to subsidies from men's events or being tagged onto the back of the men's events. Why are there less viewers interested in watching these events? Well largely I'd say because the majority of viewers of sport (and participants) are men - women just aren't as interested and people like to watch things they can equate to (wow I couldn't do that). So men watching women's / disabled sport doesn't really work perhaps except for extreme cases (e.g. Paula Radcliffe). Why aren't women as interested in sport in the first place? Another good question - I'd say probably down to evolutionary reasons. If you look at something like the Hadza people who are the nearest thing we have to the way we think ancient humans lived, the men go out and hunt and the women gather roots, berries etc. I think sport is a direct modern day replacement for hunting so its no surprise really.

    I could start up a choir for tone-deaf people - they might be the best tone deaf singers in the world who practice all hours and are thoroughly dedicated. They might enjoy every minute of it and fair play to them if that's what they want to do. But who would want to pay to listen to them?
    *fewer

    Soon even the Hadza women will want to start hunting, and THEN where will we be? It's the thin end of the wedge I tell you..

    http://morewomeninskepticism.wordpre...nalize-sexism/
    Last edited by David Mclean; 04-09-2014 at 03:32 PM.

  7. #27

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    Duncan - what is wrong with changing a rule that has stood for ages? As long as people like yourself continue to trivialize women's sport the unacceptable status quo will be sustained. If we at the grass routes don't promote equality how will the young Emma Pooleys and Lucy Gossages of future generations gather the courage to rise above this kind of attitude and dedicate themselves to hunting rather than tending the children and cooking the food the men return with. Rome wasn't built in a day. Women's sport is gradually on the rise but if we all take the "ts like that and that's the way it is" attitude like you do then the rise will be suppressed. Things have to change and that includes little rules for little races in little cycling clubs.
    Last edited by Oly; 04-09-2014 at 03:57 PM.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Murphy View Post
    Why aren't women as interested in sport in the first place? Another good question - I'd say probably down to evolutionary reasons. If you look at something like the Hadza people who are the nearest thing we have to the way we think ancient humans lived, the men go out and hunt and the women gather roots, berries etc. I think sport is a direct modern day replacement for hunting so its no surprise really.
    Wow. Just, wow.

  9. #29

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    Yes Duncan the Hadza thing was perhaps a step too far - an apology to our female cub members may be in order I think.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly View Post
    Yes Duncan the Hadza thing was perhaps a step too far - an apology to our female cub members may be in order I think.
    I have nothing to apologize for its a perfectly reasonably hypothesis. Maybe you should apologize to the Hadza people instead.

    Thank you for correcting my grammatical error David. I read your linked article and don't agree with it.
    It essentially argues that differences are due to nurture instead of nature. Maybe 50 years ago. When I was at school girls had exactly the same opportunities as boys in both sports, science and mathematics. The study mentioned in your article based on the US says half the maths degrees in the US go to women (although it doesn't state what grade they obtain). It does say that at phd level the results are dramatically different. I'd argue the simple reason for this is that in the current age of dumbing down pretty much anyone can get a maths degree if they work hard and have a decent memory - especially if you go to a lesser university. As the level of talent required goes up eventually these people fall by the wayside and you're left with those who have true ability. We've only just recently seen the first woman ever to win the Fields medal.

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