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Thread: Chelmer Road Race, 07 April 2013

  1. #21

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    I don't think there's anything sneaky about scoring 200 points in one season.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrappy Doo View Post
    I don't think there's anything sneaky about scoring 200 points in one season.
    I have to agree with this... Some very good riders struggle to get points full stop.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamzy View Post
    I have to agree with this... Some very good riders struggle to get points full stop.
    This makes me curious. Are you indicating that the performance gap between 1st and 2nd category is so large that a person who can gather 200 points in a single season to get into category 1 will struggle to get any points at all no matter his preparations? Not even get into a 20th place or a 10th? I ask because I don't know. Haven't had the opportunity to race at that level.

  4. #24

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    2nd Cats have good point scoring opportunities in Regional A races- 2/3/4's etc, there are also 2/3 and 2/3/4 Crits, obviously a 1st Cat upgrade rules these races out. In recent seasons E12 Crit's at Hog Hill have been downgraded to Regional C+ points, this years Winter Series for example, making it harder for new 1st Cats racing against experienced 1st Cat's or Elites to gain points; E12 RR's will be even harder with the usual quota of teams full of Elites riding premier calender races as well. It seems to me each licence upgrade brings an incremental requirement to up performance and I don't believe there is such a thing as easy points in full field races.

    I am not saying that I think a licence upgrade should automatically guarantee a 2nd Cat' for example with no points entry into an RR ahead of a 3rd Cat' with 39 points but you also have to recognise that a 2nd Cat' entering an RR has worked hard for the upgrade and will probably be quite a strong contender for a good finish or at least making a race interesting, you just have to look at the general results for 2/3/4's- they usually reflect the Categories fairly honestly.

    In an ideal world all factors would be taken into consideration, category, points in last season and this, current form, ERRL club or not, amount of riders per team and also giving new riders without points the opportunity to compete in RR's to gain experience etc, etc, etc, but ultimately you're always going to upset somebody aren't you.

    There are always plenty of races, RR's, Crits, whatever if you are determined enough, I am sure most of us have been knocked back for a race or got in perhaps ahead of someone more deserving, but it's swings and roundabouts isn't it.

    Luckily I am not an organzier so I don't have to worry about it.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RostRider View Post
    This makes me curious. Are you indicating that the performance gap between 1st and 2nd category is so large that a person who can gather 200 points in a single season to get into category 1 will struggle to get any points at all no matter his preparations? Not even get into a 20th place or a 10th? I ask because I don't know. Haven't had the opportunity to race at that level.
    yes, 2nd cat to 1st/Elite is a big step, especially when you consider that at every race these days you have a selection of people who are training and racing full time, so making the top 20 is dependent on having a good sprint and caring about 15th place as there are already 14 almost pros up the road and 40 people left in the bunch trying for the last 5 points..

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by yappay96 View Post
    yes, 2nd cat to 1st/Elite is a big step, especially when you consider that at every race these days you have a selection of people who are training and racing full time, so making the top 20 is dependent on having a good sprint and caring about 15th place as there are already 14 almost pros up the road and 40 people left in the bunch trying for the last 5 points..
    I agree. Just look at what has happened in practice recently. Many if not most Errl 2nd cats who have made it to first cat - all of them strong riders - have come back down after one season. The exceptions are the really young guys who are going somewhere - sponsored team etc.

    My own experience of moving from third to second was that it was much easier scoring points in 34s than 234s despite the fact there were more points overall on offer, plus there are very few 234 crits so you're straight in with the big boys - even harder to score points now midweek crits are all c+. So whereas I scored 44 points in my first season as a third cat I only managed 28 in the next season as a 2nd, despite improving.

    For my money there's no question that higher cat riders should be selected above lower ones. I think this is how most organisers have interpreted the errl rules in the past. michael's rightly pointed out that that's not what they say so I'd propose we change them at the AGM to remove any doubt.

    Good race btw and nice to see some heavy agricultural machinery back out on this course - it wouldn't be the same without it.
    Last edited by Gray; 10-04-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    Good race btw and nice to see some heavy agricultural machinery back out on this course - it wouldn't be the same without it.
    Just for the record, none of the heavy machinery got in the way of the race. The farmers around here do their best to stay out the way but since we suddenly had such a beautiful day, they, of course, had to take the opportunity to get some field work done while it wasn't too muddy. The clay soils of East Anglia make field work in the rain heavy going even for very large tractors so dry days are preferred.

    My main concern about the Birds Green course is the poor state of Dukes Lane. For two years I have been told that is it up for a proper resurfacing (not just another layer of tar and 'feather') but nothing has happened so far. Early races suffer from bad road conditions following frosty winters and this year was no exception. I used two bags of Macadam to fill in the most dangerous potholes along the route and painted around the others.

    About paint, I find the bright orange line marker to be the most visible colour from a racer's point of view. Better than white, a too pale yellow or a too dark red. Any comments on that?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    For my money there's no question that higher cat riders should be selected above lower ones. I think this is how most organisers have interpreted the errl rules in the past. michael's rightly pointed out that that's not what they say so I'd propose we change them at the AGM to remove any doubt.)
    It is probably not as simple as that. In the main we are racing under BC technical Regulations because ERRL are affiliated to BC which we want to continue as it is the only way of gaining BC points and aim for a national ranking etc. The ERRL club competition is already a compromise agreement between ERRL and BC that BC has allowed although it is against their principle of putting together the strongest field possible. Therefore the cub completion only applies to regional events. It cannot be used for national events.

    So if we want to include category as a selection criteria on top of the club competition, it will be another digression from BC tech reg that may require their approval. Perhaps someone from the ERRL committee has a view on this?

  9. #29
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    I already asked Joan about this and she didn't think it would be a problem (the earlier thread when you explained how you were going about field selection). Of course as an ERRL rule this would only apply to regional events, but again I think most organisers of national events would usually select by cat first and only then look at points for the final places.

    Not sure I completely agree that the machinery didn't affect the race. The break certainly seemed to be held up for a few seconds at quite a critical point when the gap to the bunch was only around 10 seconds. Personally I really don't mind as long as it doesn't lead to dangerous riding. All adds to the challenges of the race.

    Can't say I noticed the road surface on Dukes lane that much. The main concern I have as a rider about the course is the sharp right at Birds Green which usually causes problems one way or another and where it would be good to ensure any potholes directly after the turn are filled. Agree orange marker spray is the best option for pointing out holes. Anyway, well done for filling the holes and marking them out - not all organisers go to that trouble and the fact that I didn't notice anything is probably a sign you did a good job!
    Last edited by Gray; 12-04-2013 at 06:34 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    For my money there's no question that higher cat riders should be selected above lower ones. I think this is how most organisers have interpreted the errl rules in the past. michael's rightly pointed out that that's not what they say so I'd propose we change them at the AGM to remove any doubt.
    It is perfectly arguable that selection according to points (as is required in the ERRL field selection rules) does not need to imply that all points are weighted equally. Perhaps an organiser can legitimately choose to take greater account of points in higher category races or scored by higher category riders, or points scored this season over points scored last season, or points scored in Road Races over points scored in Track events or Circuit Races or whatever.

    Surely the only reason we need this mentioned in the ERRL rules at all is to stop organisers distorting the competition by favouring another club's weaker riders over its stronger ones, or alternatively to give them some non-contentious and non-arbitrary way of making the selection. In fact there are lots of ways of systematically basing selection on points, apart from a simple tally like the one Michael has used, and it is being systematic that is really all we need.

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