Calendar planning 2009 [Archive] - The Eastern Road Race League Forums

lombywill

28-08-2008, 04:23 PM

I've just received my registration form for next year's Glade RR. This has prompted me to start the annual grab a weekend contest.

What with all the moaning that there is nothing for E12's at this time of year, I would like to make some proposals:

1. There should not allowed to be 2 races on the same day while there are still empty weekends in the calendar!
2. As the above will I am sure meet with some dissent, I propose that there should DEFINITELY NOT be another race on the same day as the Divs or the Champs. We should be preserving the importance of the Divs. 3rd cats should want to ride it and there should be a 3rd cat prize. The Divs should be everyone's World Champs and no easy options should be allowed when it is on.

Do we know when the league AGM is?
The Eastern Region one is late September and that is when the date fixing is so we need to get organised.

On a more specific note, the Glade CC would like to get another club on board with us next year so we can promote two races. I believe as long as two clubs work together to put on two races then this counts as each clubs event for the year. As a small club we feel this would increase our resource base and actually allow some of our riders to ride our own race. We have no race equipment and had to borrow that last year so another small club with race equipment would be the ideal candidate.

The idea would be to promote a good quality Elite race with good prizes, subsidised by a shorter, low minimum prize 3rd cat race. If possible we would like to keep our April date and hopefully avoid a clash with any other elite race in the London area, thus guaranteeing a good quality field like the one at this year's Dengie Classic.

We have found a way to extend our course to 14 miles. Avoiding the road in Elmdon with all the parked cars on it and looping around the village. This involves going straight across the crossroads at Quickset road where we previously went left into Elmdon, left at Hertford Lane and into Elmdon that way. I think it adds one marshalling point. However, for two races this actually gets much better value for money out of the accredited marshalls. And with two clubs the standard marshalling jobs should be easily covered.

Could Brian/Joan/Derek comment on this course proposal from memory so I have an idea whether it will be ok to send for risk assessment or not. Obviously if we have no takers we will promote just one race on our normal course.

Any takers please contact me on here or at willhedden@hotmail.com.
Cheers.
Will H
Glade CC

RobB

28-08-2008, 04:40 PM

Hi Will, I think I'll be entering the grab a new date contest at the fixing meeting. The date I had for this years Shaftesbury event fell on the same day as the National Road Race, so the higher category local riders headed North for that, which was fair enough. Also, the Met Police Race was subsequently allocated the same date for their 3rd Cat race, so both these factors effected the entries for our race. I'll certainly be looking for a clear date but I'm guessing it won't prove too easy, we'll see.

spike

28-08-2008, 06:43 PM

I have an idea.....

Why dont we allow 1st cat riders from ERRL clubs to ride all the 2/3/ races as quite a few riders dont do a full season or pick events so as not to go up and stay 2nd so they do not have to travel?

Nick E

28-08-2008, 07:36 PM

1. There should not allowed to be 2 races on the same day while there are still empty weekends in the calendar!

How about a correction? "There should not allowed to be 3 races on the same day..."
VC Baracchi's "Beccles RR" suffered with 3 races in the same area on June 8th this year.
It was a E/1/2/3 "Nat B" event and hardly anyone turned up! Just enough to keep the event on though. I'm not sure whether certain Elite and 1st Cats want to come up to "Flat Suffolk". Perhaps it's the tractors???

dds11

28-08-2008, 10:02 PM

I think we still need improved coordination of the races in the region full stop.
We should work out how many races we need of which categories.
We should also be working hard to get the distribution throughout the season optimal.
At the moment it seems rather random.

For example:
The fact that the Glendene road race was cancelled for lack of entries, the ERRL champs didn't have a full field and that the Ike Saul has only 22 entries makes it look to me like we have too many E/1/2/3 races at this end of the season.

Gladerunner

28-08-2008, 11:14 PM

Digby, that's unfortunate regarding your race and the small turn out on the start sheet. I can't remember the last time you have had anything other than a full field.

Two things that did not help:

BC mistakenly listing it as an E/1/2 event in the handbook, so no 3rd cats and some 2nd cats must of thought the Ike Saul had got Premier Calendar status.

Even without that, the Victoria Road Race is on the same day (14th September) so 3rd cats would lean towards this.
Had your race been one week later (21st September) when there are no races on at all in the region, then you would have had a good sized field. I certainly would have entered it.

spike

29-08-2008, 06:42 AM

Why do we need 3/4 races if they were all 2/3/4 or E/1/2/3 it would be better!

I am rideing the cambridge race on the 14th but if you just switched it to the 21st as a second cat I then would not have a race on the 14th so it all needs looking at just moving races around will only work if every cat of rider has a race....

racyrich

29-08-2008, 08:40 AM

Roz

29-08-2008, 09:15 AM

Should we be surprised that the Glendene event ( Nat B ) has been cancelled ? On that day, in the Eastern region, is also another Nat B & Reg B combined, and another Reg B. !!!
For general info, I am planning The Dengie Marshes Tour ( NAT. B ) for the 29th. March 2009. As the clocks usually move forward for that date, I am requesting a later start. I think that adding " preference to ERRL riders " to a race description, can affect entries (NOT ALL EVENTS SHOW THIS !! ). Actually it is incorrect, using the selection method specified in the rules, Elite riders ( non ERRL affiliated) have preference over 1st. cat affiliated, etc. for other categories. Surely it is better to quote - ERRL, OPEN TO ALL. This is more accurate & could attract riders from outside the region.

Alan Lawrence

29-08-2008, 09:59 AM

I think the E/1/2s suffer from the time of start. Given that the local 3rds mostly won't enter, nor indeed will some 2nds, the race is relying on higher category riders from out of the area. That means they're probably travelling a reasonable distance. No fun for a 9am start.

I totally agree with Richard and it may also be worth mentioning that the prize money needs to be worth while for those Elite/1st Cats that travel from out of area....especially with the ever increasing fuel costs ?! http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/ChinScratch.gif

lombywill

29-08-2008, 01:04 PM

I believe Spike's proposal about ERRL 1st Cats riding 234's was a rule used previously in a few races, the Shaftesbury's race was one I think.

We should obviously apply more effort to sorting the calendar at the AGM. Maybe we need to be hard and say if a club has not submitted their date before, or if nobody from a club attends the meeting then they will be allocated a date to suit the league.

Assuming the Maldon want their normal date of first weekend in April, and my date from last year is now Easter Sunday, could I apply for the 19th April? How do the VC revolution feel about this as this was their weekend last year? I have looked at the calendar and notice the next weekend (26th) was empty this year so do they mind shuffling back one or maybe I can take that date if they don't want to. The downside of promoting our Elite race on the 26th would be that it will probably clash with the Rutland and therefore get very few elites and 1's, so the week before would be better. I assume the ECCA Festival will be as usual the May day weekend after this. Due to the small size of our club I don't want to promote at Easter so as to possibly stretch our already limited resources further, assuming some members to be away. VCR to comment, thanks!

racyrich

29-08-2008, 02:30 PM

Will,
1. Think when Sardinia is
2. Look at what weekends were race-less this year

lombywill

29-08-2008, 02:35 PM

Rich, don't think any of us are going next year, but I will check.
It has to be one of those 3 weekends in April as March should be full and so is May.

TimW

29-08-2008, 03:14 PM

I totally agree with Richard and it may also be worth mentioning that the prize money needs to be worth while for those Elite/1st Cats that travel from out of area....especially with the ever increasing fuel costs ?! http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/ChinScratch.gif

Where do people find out what the prize money is? It's certainly never listed by the BCF. It's a bit like the race circuit: Even if you've done the same event before you only find out about the circuit and the prize money when you get your start sheet (i.e. long after you made the decision to enter the event).

I'd be interested to know whether anyone choses which events to do based on the prize money.

racyrich

29-08-2008, 04:52 PM

Rich, don't think any of us are going next year, but I will check.
It has to be one of those 3 weekends in April as March should be full and so is May.

You might want to look what events were on throughout southern England this year as you're effectively competing for Elites over half the country. You don't want to clash with the Hounslow, Thames Velo, etc. Contact their organisers perhaps?

Tim - no, hard to imagine anyone picks their races based on prize money, especially in the current climate where if you're an elite you're lucky to have a race at all, and the petrol cost is more decisive than some promise of prize money. The days of Curran and Farrell always turning up and plundering the Equity and Law GP are long gone!

needmorespeed

29-08-2008, 05:19 PM

Maybe now that Hog Hill is up and running, and there could quite easily be a 3/4 race there each weekend, maybe the league races should be E123, 123 or 234

spike

29-08-2008, 06:06 PM

2/3 + ERRL 1st cats and if the 3rd cats dont fancy riding against 2nd cats and ERRL 1st cats they can go get a nice easy ride at Hog Hill.....with the 4th cats and the small hill!

Nick E

29-08-2008, 06:30 PM

We should obviously apply more effort to sorting the calendar at the AGM. Maybe we need to be hard and say if a club has not submitted their date before, or if nobody from a club attends the meeting then they will be allocated a date to suit the league.

Even if clubs attend sometimes they get a raw deal. I can't remember the amount of times i spoke up about the "Triple Race" scenario on June 8th but it remained the same.

I agree, it would be great if we all got a E/1/2 and a 3/4 on the same weekend or a 2/3/4 every other but that's down i guess to the BC officials on the day of the meeting...isn't it?

I'm sure we can all accomodate this bit all it takes is one who won't compromise and that's that. It'll be every man (or club) for himself...again.

skipper

29-08-2008, 07:20 PM

2/3 + ERRL 1st cats and if the 3rd cats dont fancy riding against 2nd cats and ERRL 1st cats they can go get a nice easy ride at Hog Hill.....with the 4th cats and the small hill!

I thinkthat this sounds like a good idea letting the 1st cats ride some of the 2/3 races if there is nothing else on, other wise when im back from uni living in the sticks its such a long drive getting to any race let alone trying to find one that im actually allowd to ride.

orpy

31-08-2008, 02:08 PM

Wasn't Ashwells Primavera the only solely 4th cat race this year?

ISTR that it was well over-subscribed despite stretching the boundaries of the term "Eastern" :mad:

Clubs in the Central area seem to put on a few races for 123s with a preliminary 4th cat race to wake the spectators and officials -- the (geographical) Eastern region does nothing...

pottsie

31-08-2008, 02:41 PM

2/3 + ERRL 1st cats and if the 3rd cats dont fancy riding against 2nd cats and ERRL 1st cats they can go get a nice easy ride at Hog Hill.....with the 4th cats and the small hill!

BC do not allow 1/2/3 events, they must be E/1/2/3 (National B), 2/3/4 (Regional A) or 3/4 (Regional B).

racyrich

31-08-2008, 10:14 PM

BC do not allow 1/2/3 events, they must be E/1/2/3 (National B), 2/3/4 (Regional A) or 3/4 (Regional B).

Other divisions seem to have managed quite ok.

needmorespeed

31-08-2008, 10:32 PM

BC do not allow 1/2/3 events, they must be E/1/2/3 (National B), 2/3/4 (Regional A) or 3/4 (Regional B).

How come the last race at Hog Hill on Saturday was E12

spike

01-09-2008, 06:36 AM

I road a SERRL event that was 123 and they said NO E riders?

spike

01-09-2008, 06:42 AM

Just back from Belgium Fantastic!

They race you out the back 112km FLAT out 12 bends in 7km closed roads!25.6 ave speed! 39.2mph Flat finish!
3 Euro to enter!

All CATS togther no messing if you cant cut it out the back you go!

Lets just make EERL all E/1/2/3/4

And O so Flat Heven...

needmorespeed

01-09-2008, 08:38 AM

Just back from Belgium Fantastic!

They race you out the back 112km FLAT out 12 bends in 7km closed roads!25.5 ave speed!
3 Euro to enter!

All CATS togther no messing if you cant cut it out the back you go!

Lets just make EERL all E/1/2/3/4

And O so Flat Heven...

Surely that's the same at Hog Hill, if you can't cut it up the hill, out the back you go.

spike

01-09-2008, 08:50 AM

It is the same for Hog Hill!

bring it on PMA

IJF

01-09-2008, 12:23 PM

i have also ridden events where the catergories are different from our own, e.g. 1/2 , 2/3 and 1/2/3's usually all in the SERRL or surrey league, all of which were Regional A. So if BC dont allow it, how are they able to do it?

1/2/3 racing is usually very good, but i dont think they are always a very good idea as it just rules out the Elites yet again causing them to travel out of our region to race.

racyrich

01-09-2008, 01:23 PM

Roz

01-09-2008, 02:36 PM

Who are the Eastern Region elites?

You'd think any genuine up-and-coming, keen ones wouldn't want to be riding league races anyway. Any who are vets can take advantage of the BC allowance to maintain a 1st even with elite level points. Does Eastern have any elites who fall in the middle - not going up, too good to go down. Andy Lyons joins us oldies next year I think.

Andy Lyons has till mid. October 2009 before joining the "oldies". He will then have plenty of time reflecting on his fantastic racing record before joining " The Blue Rinse Brigade ".

racyrich

01-09-2008, 03:18 PM

Andy Lyons has till mid. October 2009 before joining the "oldies". He will then have plenty of time reflecting on his fantastic racing record before joining " The Blue Rinse Brigade ".

You're a BC vet from the start of the year of your 40th birthday. Strange really, as you're a junior till the end of the year of your 18th birthday. So you lose a year of being a straight senior.

ChrisB

01-09-2008, 04:08 PM

What, so you get a year as an ambassador of the 'rainbow nation'?

pottsie

01-09-2008, 04:10 PM

You're a BC vet from the start of the year of your 40th birthday. Strange really, as you're a junior till the end of the year of your 18th birthday. So you lose a year of being a straight senior.

You are a vet from the start of the year of your 30th birthday, but only those Elites over 40 can apply for a 1st cat licence.

lombywill

01-09-2008, 04:16 PM

going back to my orginal post, has anyone from the VCR seen my question?

ChrisB

01-09-2008, 04:16 PM

Well, strictly aren't you a Master, as opposed to a Vet? A Vet is just MC+, no?

Roz

01-09-2008, 04:59 PM

Well, strictly aren't you a Master, as opposed to a Vet? A Vet is just MC+, no?

The confusion is that BC. do not use the term " Vet ". A rider becomes a " Master " on the 1st of Jan. for the year in which his 30th. birthday falls, he is graded A TO I depending on which block of 4 years he falls into. Its the LVRC who use the term "VET " for riders on reaching their 40th. birthday, they move category ( where appropriate ) on their birthdate.
Oh dear !!! I feel quite sad quoting these regs. Must get out more but not before getting my medication from Matron.
A " Blue Rinse Brigade Member ".

Roz

01-09-2008, 05:10 PM

Since my abacus has been broken, I have difficulty in understanding that 1st jan in year reaching 30 to end of year becoming 34 is a " 5 year " & not " 4 year" block as previously mentioned. Must go - its lights out, 17.10 hrs !!!

01-09-2008, 06:21 PM

Strange really, as you're a junior till the end of the year of your 18th birthday. So you lose a year of being a straight senior.

Im not totall sure, but i think as long as you are 18 on 1st Jan, you're a junior for the rest of that year, even if your 19 on Jan 2nd.
And if your 16 on Jan 1st you are youth A for that year, OR you can apply for a junior lisence, but not both.
if anyone knows any different please say, thats just what people have told me.

speedyshaun

01-09-2008, 10:52 PM

You are a vet from the start of the year of your 30th birthday, but only those Elites over 40 can apply for a 1st cat licence.

You do mean 40 in both cases don't you? so confussing getting old.

Roz

02-09-2008, 09:47 AM

2008 BC. Rules state - " 16 yrs. old or born in 1990 or 1991. From 1st. Jan in year in which 17th. birthday falls to 31st. December of year in which 18th. birthday falls ".
IF ONLY !!!

dds11

02-09-2008, 11:00 AM

Could someone please remind me when the date fixing meeting is?
Thanks,

Digby

Alan Lawrence

02-09-2008, 04:16 PM

Could someone please remind me when the date fixing meeting is?
Thanks,

Digby

Digby, as requested. http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

Dear Secretary

Please be advised that the Region AGM will be held on Friday 26th September 2008 at the Redbridge Cycling Circuit, Forest Road, Fairlop, IG6 3HP commencing at 7:30pm.

Would you please let me have any items for inclusion in the Agenda by Wednesday 3rd September including nominations for the National Board of which there are three vacant positions one of which is Vic Hopkin who is standing for re-election.

As last year the meeting will be followed by the Date Fixing Meeting and further details will follow.

Yours sincerely

Trevor Mills
Chair & Secretary, British Cycling, Eastern Region

pottsie

02-09-2008, 04:54 PM

You do mean 40 in both cases don't you? so confussing getting old.

No. 30 first then 40 as my post.

Master A
30 – 34 born in 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977 or 1978 From 1st Jan of year in which 30th birthday falls to 31st December of year in which 34th birthday falls.
Master B
35 – 39 born in 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972 or 1973 From 1st Jan of year in which 35th birthday falls to 31st December of year in which 39th birthday falls.
Master C
40 – 44 born in 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967 or 1968 From 1st Jan of year in which 40th birthday falls to 31st December of year in which 44th birthday falls.
Master D
45 – 49 born in 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962 or 1963 From 1st Jan of year in which 45th birthday falls to 31st December of year in which 49th birthday falls.
Master E
50 – 54 born in 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957 or 1958 From 1st Jan of year in which 50th birthday falls to 31st December of year in which 54th birthday falls.
Master F
55 – 59 born in 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952 or 1953 From 1st Jan of year in which 55th birthday falls to 31st December of year in which 59th birthday falls.
Master G
60 – 64 born in 1944, 1945, 1946, 1947 or 1948 From 1st Jan of year in which 60th birthday falls to 31st December of year in which 64th birthday falls.
Master H
65 – 69 born in 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942 or 1943 From 1st Jan of year in which 65th birthday falls to 31st December of year in which 69th birthday falls.
Master I 70 +
born in 1938 or earlier From 1st Jan of year in which 70th birthday falls.

They are called Masters in BC, but I have only just got used to calling us a Region and not a Division.

spike

02-09-2008, 05:31 PM

Great to tell us when we are old! but I know I am old!

Tell us how other regions are runing 123 races with NO E and the other combinations that we in ERRL cant do?

Alan Lawrence

02-09-2008, 10:04 PM

woody

02-09-2008, 10:07 PM

Assuming the Maldon want their normal date of first weekend in April, and my date from last year is now Easter Sunday, could I apply for the 19th April? How do the VC revolution feel about this as this was their weekend last year? I have looked at the calendar and notice the next weekend (26th) was empty this year so do they mind shuffling back one or maybe I can take that date if they don't want to. The downside of promoting our Elite race on the 26th would be that it will probably clash with the Rutland and therefore get very few elites and 1's, so the week before would be better. I assume the ECCA Festival will be as usual the May day weekend after this. Due to the small size of our club I don't want to promote at Easter so as to possibly stretch our already limited resources further, assuming some members to be away. VCR to comment, thanks![/QUOTE]

yes we at the Maldon would like our usual date 05/04/09 pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeese !!!!

Hugo Robins

02-09-2008, 10:11 PM

"BC do not allow 1/2/3 events, they must be E/1/2/3 (National B), 2/3/4 (Regional A) or 3/4 (Regional B)." [Pottsie]

Organisers in other regions just place additional restrictions on who they'll accept entries from. It turns out you are perfectly free to do so, but the BC points otherwise available will be reduced by one band, (just as they are in ERRL E123 races which are thought by BC not to be open to non-ERRL Es and 1s).

For example, the Surrey League doesn't allow 4th cats to ride open road races as a matter of safety policy, so its Regional B races are only open to 3rd cats; and it doesn't allow Elites to ride in most of its National B races, and so they only offer points on Band 3 rather than the Band 2 that you might otherwise expect. The idea here is that riders aspiring to Elite status should be competing on a national stage not cluttering up regional races.

It's definitely worth a debate whether or not we should move to a Surrey League system that allows 1st cats to ride the races currently restricted to 2s and 3s. The major advantage is social - 1st cats wouldn't suddenly find themselves ostracised from racing with their clubmates. The disadvantage is that fewer 2s and 3s would be getting into the finish of these races (and it does take a certain strength of character not to get discouraged if you are always getting beat).

You can only win a race if there's somebody prepared to lose it.

spike

03-09-2008, 08:38 AM

If 1st cats ride the races they will be faster and more attacking which should make for a better race.....

Most ERRL first cats have ridden lots of events anyway befor they go up ie Skipper and Vince etc...

the E riders should be at national events not local league races. There are events for Local E like Jock wadley,Marshes,Andrews etc

I think the standard of the league would inprove if we go to 123 and a few 3/4 races just to keep the 4th cats happy.We have far 2 many 3/4 races at present.

racyrich

03-09-2008, 09:05 AM

pottsie

03-09-2008, 11:15 AM

If you only promote 1/2/3 events within the ERRL, there will be only 3 races for elite riders on the road unless they travel long distances, as clubs usually only promote 1 race a year.

Also the following year all those 1st cats who have been lucky enough to win these races will now be Elites and not be eligible to ride your events.

This defeats the object of BC's category system and fair play to all riders.

When the new category system came in a few years ago we tried to ensure that all categories were catered for and some clubs were requested to change their events to suit, which they did.

I believe what you are suggesting is a retrograde step.

IJF

03-09-2008, 11:29 AM

Can we just convert all the 2/3/4's into 1/2/3's, keep the E/1/2's the same (if not promote more) and have a fair balance of 3/4 racing as well

skipper

03-09-2008, 12:23 PM

Can we just convert all the 2/3/4's into 1/2/3's, keep the E/1/2's the same (if not promote more) and have a fair balance of 3/4 racing as well

Ian this sounds like a fair solution this way the first cats have more races, the Elites should hopefully have at least the same amount of races if not more. And also 2 and 3 cat riders would be riding with 1st cats which should improve the quality of racing, and it encourages 4th cats to do well in races so they can move up and have a better choice of races.

spike

03-09-2008, 01:51 PM

Can we just convert all the 2/3/4's into 1/2/3's, keep the E/1/2's the same (if not promote more) and have a fair balance of 3/4 racing as well

That was what I was getting at apart from do we need so many 3/4 races..... and make the E/1/2/3 not just E/1/2

IJF

03-09-2008, 02:41 PM

Seems good to me, at least this way there is more of an incentive to become a first cat and still have a local race to ride. Also the majority of entrants in 2/3/4 races are 2nds and 3rds anyway so if we make it into a 1/2/3 then organisers would be virtually guarenteed a full field and near enough have the certainty of a better race.

Also if we turn our races into 1/2/3's they would then be classed as National B's (band 3) which would in turn better our regions ranking in the country, currently we are in 6th place with all of our surrounding regions ahead of us.

I take it this sort of thing can be discussed at the AGM?

Rob J

03-09-2008, 02:42 PM

if it ain't broke.

i.e. what pottsie said.

ego_land

03-09-2008, 02:45 PM

That was what I was getting at apart from do we need so many 3/4 races..... and make the E/1/2/3 not just E/1/2

While I myself might agree with you and think we need more 2/3/4 and above races, there is a large (possibly the majority?) number of 'perpetual' 3rd cats who are comfortable racing at the Regional B level and have no ambitions (or available training hours) to improve beyond this. If you reduced the 3/4 races where they feel they can actually be 'in' the race, we would undoubtedly have a flurry of complaints.

Just look at what happens when an E/1/2/3 or 2/3/4 is scheduled on the same day as a 3/4 - where do all the 3rd cats go? Regardless of how much you'll improve by racing in tougher fields, your chances of notching up some points are probably better in an undersubscribed E/1/2/3 than in the bunch-sprint lottery of a 3/4! From personal experience, I didn't start to get better until I found the guts to start racing the harder races last year.

On the other hand I can understand not wanting to be out the back week in & week out. This year has been a wash for me, perhaps partly because I didn't build up some early season confidence in easier fields?

Can one of the BC Eastern folks provides us with numbers for riders in each category in the region? I think it would be useful to compare this to the categories of races that were on the calendar this year, as Digby suggested earlier.

Cheers,

IJF

03-09-2008, 02:48 PM

if it ain't broke.

i.e. what pottsie said.

But the thing is it is, 1st cats have barely any local races, and by looking at the rankings other regions have done better with their road event structures.

If this region wants to improve then some positive change needs to happen, not just sitting back and saying if it aint broke....

Rob J

03-09-2008, 03:24 PM

But the thing is it is, 1st cats have barely any local races, and by looking at the rankings other regions have done better with their road event structures.

If this region wants to improve then some positive change needs to happen, not just sitting back and saying if it aint broke....

OK, if 1st cats are not being catered for and they're unhappy about the lack of local races, then OK, I admit there's a problem. Any 1st cats care to comment? I mostly see 2nd cats knocking 3/4 races and riders.

I'm saying it ain't broke because I think the spread of events reflects supply and demand, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is what pottsie was saying about catering for all categories. I don't think it's got anything to do with trying to make the region better - the guys from Yorkshire are always the best, at least on the domestic scene...

ego_land

03-09-2008, 03:41 PM

I'm saying it ain't broke because I think the spread of events reflects supply and demand

Exactly why I want to see the numbers for the region - this entire discussion is based only on opinion until we see how many of each category of rider we have, and compare that to the races being run.

I'd say I'm actually against tweaking our races to differ from the British Cycling defined fields. Their efforts to set up a standardised system and adjust it to be balanced year-on-year will only be undermined by each region going off and doing its own thing.

I am in favor of adjusting the relative numbers of Nat B/Reg A/Reg B in the region to match up with our actual demographics.

IJF

03-09-2008, 03:42 PM

Yes catering for the demand is obviously the way to play it, and therefore the new structure would suit a 3rd cat even better surely?? as they can now ride every event we have suggested

E/1/2/3 - National B - Band 2
1/2/3 - National B - Band 3
3/4 - Regional B - Band 4

txorme

03-09-2008, 03:47 PM

IJF

03-09-2008, 03:56 PM

Surely it would be better than having to cancel races all together, as we have seen in the past and recently.

racyrich

03-09-2008, 04:27 PM

I am in favor of adjusting the relative numbers of Nat B/Reg A/Reg B in the region to match up with our actual demographics.

Trouble is are the demographics the cause or the effect of the race programme?

I have a 3rd cat licence but haven't raced this year. I imagine many 3rds and 4ths don't race each week. They're simply not as ambitious or motivated. Their category demonstrates that.
By comparison 2nds and definitely 1sts are serious and do want to race each week. But there's only a tenth the number of them.
So, first, what are you going to count? Purely riders per category? Or entries per rider category (better) including entries returned, if that's available to know. Better still, average race entries per rider category. Then pro rated for how many he could have entered.
So an average 3rd enters (say) 15 races out of (say) 25 available.
An average 1st enters 10 out of 10 (say).
That would tell me 1st cats demand meets supply whereas 3rd cat demand nowhere near meets supply. So it's the 1st cat race supply that needs improving.
But lets see the numbers.

spike

03-09-2008, 05:40 PM

Hi Rich

Thats got them all talking!

Rob J

03-09-2008, 05:44 PM

They're simply not as ambitious or motivated. Their category demonstrates that.

To be fair, their cateogry, including yours, only demonstrates not getting enough points to upgrade this season.

With supply and demand you have to take quantity into account, and there are loads more 3rd cats than 1sts. As the generally full fields testify there are more 3rd cats willing to race every weekend - maybe not the same guys week in / week out, although there are a core group of riders you see at pretty much every race - you know, those "perpetual 3rd cats" ;-)

spike

03-09-2008, 05:47 PM

They can still ride every week just in a 123 and they might even get better!

OR we can leave it the same and they can roll round in the bunch every week not getting better....

speedyshaun

03-09-2008, 11:24 PM

I expect there's quite a few riders like me who avoid going up into a catergory where you have hardly any local races, i was a 1st cat for most of my 20's but i got feed up with the travelling and lack of races so focused more on cyclocross, i now just do a few road races each year avoiding getting too many points then get to race round a field with however many riders of varying catergory's which enter on the day, 2 or 3 races each month and they start at the nice sociable time of 1pm.

www.easterncross.btinternet.co.uk

spike

04-09-2008, 07:47 AM

txorme

04-09-2008, 08:22 AM

This is a good example of how the system is not working I know of quite a few riders that do this.Start late or finish early in the season to keep their points down

Quite a few get to near 1st and back off for example Digby is very close and could go up easy but will he?

I bet I know more riders who struggle to go from 4th to 3rd and 2nd . Hopefully with HH now open there will be more accomodation in the calandar this year for all catagories.

Rob J

04-09-2008, 09:51 AM

Is it the system not working or a case of working the system?

At the Ras De Cymru, officially a 2/3 race, the standard of riding was much higher than I expected. Do a bit of digging around and it turns out most of the guys animating the race had been Elites or 1st cats so it might as well have been an E/1/2/3.

Maybe I'm coming round to Spike's way of thinking...

ego_land

04-09-2008, 10:27 AM

I suspect that 1st cats definitely catch the short end of the stick currently. From my understanding, as the system has been tweaked over the years, the category without enough races shifts around a bit - i've been told that not too many years ago 2nd cats had trouble finding races?

It is true that every other category has a race category for which they are the highest permitted entrant.

If BC modified Nat B to be 1/2/3 (or added Nat C?), or if we 'unofficially' did the same, then we'd have Elites complaining that they don't have enough local rides - but then it's been said that Elites should be willing to travel anyways.

I can sympathise with those riders who don't have ambitions to the premier calendar but are good enough to rise to the top of their region. The system currently places them in an awkward position.

It's important to remember that while this is an obsession for many of us, it is just a hobby for some :)

lombywill

04-09-2008, 11:31 AM

At the Ras De Cymru, officially a 2/3 race, the standard of riding was much higher than I expected. Do a bit of digging around and it turns out most of the guys animating the race had been Elites or 1st cats so it might as well have been an E/1/2/3

I think there is a big difference between a 23 stage race with some ringers to a E12 stage race!

It makes no sense to me that 3rds should have more racing if they are incapable/unwilling to commit time to training/improving, be this due to work or whatever. Surely those higher categories who have the time/ability to train more should have more racing, and 3rds who don't should get less racing, so they can go out and get some proper training done when there is no race!

I wonder how bad the uproar was at the thought of riding that climb at the Essex Roads RR so many times?

Perhaps my time is spent hanging around with too many riders who were good under the old pre-elite system. Based on my results I'd probably be a third cat under the old system, but then the racing I would be doing would be all 123 and then when it comes to riding the 3rd cat races I would be strong enough to do some damage.

Rob J

04-09-2008, 01:18 PM

I wonder how bad the uproar was at the thought of riding that climb at the Essex Roads RR so many times?

Ho ho! Actually, there was no uproar as far as I could tell. In fact, some of us were quite pleased as there was more of a selection at the end - and no "lottery" bunch sprint.

It's a great circuit that should get used more often.

spike

04-09-2008, 01:32 PM

Bunch sprints are not easy to win even if you have a good finish it takes skill to get in the right place to get the result ask Mark Cavendish!(or maybe his team as they do most of the work to get him in the right place)

It is true that even if you are good at them you do not always win but you can also say the best climber is not always first up the climb!

Rob J

04-09-2008, 01:53 PM

Yeah, I actually agree with you Spike - it's Eric's view that 3/4 bunch sprints are a "lottery", and I don't want to stir up the whole "3rd cats are crap" thread again...

It was just a nice change to have a 3/4 finish where there weren't riders across the full width of the road, all with reasonably fresh legs.

spike

04-09-2008, 02:01 PM

Sounds like a Hog Hill finish!

Rob J

04-09-2008, 02:25 PM

Sounds like a Hog Hill finish!

The run-up to the finish is at the 5-6 mile mark on the elevation profile:

http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Essex-Roads-CC-Autumn-RR

The last RH bend is almost Alpine like and quite steep if you take the inside line.

Everything I've heard about Hog Hill so far makes me want to race there, so I hope they get this Winter series thing going.

needmorespeed

04-09-2008, 05:16 PM

I bet I know more riders who struggle to go from 4th to 3rd and 2nd . Hopefully with HH now open there will be more accomodation in the calandar this year for all catagories.

I hope you are not saying that is why we need so many 3/4 races.

04-09-2008, 05:25 PM

and I don't want to stir up the whole "3rd cats are crap" thread again...

Chris Hoy is actually a 3rd cat, and he's a triple olympic champion, therefore, 3rd cat is the place too be, and thats why they have so many races ;)

Nick E

04-09-2008, 09:05 PM

It makes no sense to me that 3rds should have more racing if they are incapable/unwilling to commit time to training/improving, be this due to work or whatever.
The "whatever" bit is the fact that my body (nor my Asthma) is suited to cycling.
I train all winter, keeping up with the rest on winter training runs, and then spring arrives and you lot sprint off in the distance getting points and bigger categories on ya licence!

The fact i keep going is that i love the sport, which let's face it, is why we started.

To be labelled as "unwilling" is a bit harsh, the mind is, the body just isn't designed for it. The fact i'm a 3rd cat (and once a 2nd cat) proves i can only go so far!

Fine, have more races for E/1/2's. But leave the races for 3/4's as they are (albeit perhaps on different dates to balance the calendar).
There's enough member clubs of the ERRL to promote both....isn't there?

orpy

05-09-2008, 01:02 AM

Fine, have more races for E/1/2's. But leave the races for 3/4's as they are (albeit perhaps on different dates to balance the calendar).
There's enough member clubs of the ERRL to promote both....isn't there?

I'll make my suggestion again as 4th cats main function is to make 3rd cats appear faster and fitter ;)

Take one 3/4 event every month and convert it to an E123 with a preliminary, short 4th cat race run over the same circuit.

The 4th cats get a chance to compete without "lifer" 3rd cats whinging about how we are to blame for everything from crashes to bad weather.

The 3rds still have exactly the same number of chances to compete but may have to pedal a bit faster and further :)

Maybe we should try it as an experiment next year -- that should give a fat old ba*tard like me enough time to get 10 points -- and then we can switch back to the old regime...

spike

05-09-2008, 07:11 AM

If you open it to E the 3rd cats will find it to hard so it works if you make it 1/2/3.

txorme

05-09-2008, 08:29 AM

Probably, with the exception of the Elites all riders would become better if we made all races E123 and increased all fields to the maximum permittable.

Rob J

05-09-2008, 09:33 AM

On the Falling Leaves start sheet, a 3/4 race, there are 35 Vets! I'm a Vet and I definately train more than I did when I was younger, and a 2nd Cat. In fact "training" back then just meant racing every weekend and a mid-week Club 10.

PS. Sadly, only one Junior on the start sheet.

TimBob

05-09-2008, 11:01 AM

Probably, with the exception of the Elites all riders would become better if we made all races E123 and increased all fields to the maximum permittable.

Elites and the cream of the 4th cat crop like Orpy and myself ;)

lombywill

05-09-2008, 12:16 PM

05-09-2008, 02:09 PM

PS. Sadly, only one Junior on the start sheet.
yeah, thats me. So dont worry, you 35 vets are all safe!

The way i see it, the majority of 3+4s have either just started or are racing as a bit of fitness/hobby. 2nd+ are obviously more serious and keen, so maybe they should be prepared to drive abit further to get to a race, even if its in a different region.

I think the current number of races is probably ok, but as Will says, having big gaps without top races is not too smart, espically when (i think about 3 weeks ago) they were 4 Eastern races on one day!

racyrich

05-09-2008, 03:36 PM

yeah, thats me. So dont worry, you 35 vets are all safe!

The way i see it, the majority of 3+4s have either just started or are racing as a bit of fitness/hobby. 2nd+ are obviously more serious and keen, so maybe they should be prepared to drive abit further to get to a race, even if its in a different region.

Why? No one's being paid to race, even most Elites. It's a hobby for all but about 20 riders in this country. Why should the ones already making more sacrifices have to make even more each weekend? I think you've missed the point of a RACE. It's not a brisk mass participation ride where finishing is the objective.

Rob J

05-09-2008, 04:08 PM

The way i see it, the majority of 3+4s have either just started or are racing as a bit of fitness/hobby.

Probably true in most cases, but in this one, the (58%) majority are old geezers :) I've been racing on and off for over 25 years!

2nd+ are obviously more serious and keen

I think one thing that's obvious about 2nd cats is that they don't have too many nice things to say about 3rd cats! :) 2nd cats have just got more points from racing - that's obvious ;)

Nick E

05-09-2008, 06:10 PM

Sorry Nick no offence meant.

I'm not saying there should be less 3/4 races. I just want to see a bit more thought put into the calendar to avoid empty weekends and event clashes. I think that is what I wrote 8 pages ago when I started!:confused::)

I know ya did, seems that these threads always go off on tangents occasionally.
Here's what i said at the start.....

I agree, it would be great if we all got a E/1/2 and a 3/4 on the same weekend or a 2/3/4 every other but that's down i guess to the BC officials on the day of the meeting...isn't it?

I'm sure we can all accomodate this bit all it takes is one who won't compromise and that's that. It'll be every man (or club) for himself...again.

I hope this year's date fixing meeting won't turn out as a "every man for himself" again.
If we all put forward our views as we indeed have on this forum then hopefully things will get better and we'll have a good, well balanced calendar for 2009.

orpy

06-09-2008, 12:10 AM

I hope this year's date fixing meeting won't turn out as a "every man for himself" again.

If too many Elite, 1st and 2nd cats turn up I reckon it'll end up like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXOU2Tno7YA

;)

ChrisB

06-09-2008, 08:32 PM

I think you've missed the point of a RACE. It's not a brisk mass participation ride where finishing is the objective.

That has always been my view too. If you want a brisk ride, enter a sportive...

needmorespeed

07-09-2008, 07:46 PM

That has always been my view too. If you want a brisk ride, enter a sportive...

Carefull, I got a right ear bashing for saying that in this same arguement last winter.

pottsie

09-09-2008, 11:13 AM

Please look as the post on the BC Eastern Section of the Forum concerning categories.

racyrich

09-09-2008, 12:17 PM

Please look as the post on the BC Eastern Section of the Forum concerning categories.

Derek contacted BC HQ to see if the ERRL would be allowed to exclude Elite riders from their events, or to change the categories as other Regions have done. They stated they would not allow any deviation from the categories in the Tech. Regs. and they would be addressing this matter with the other Regions.

£5 says the Surrey League continues to do as it pleases. Last time BC upset them they left - cost BC many thousands in levies.

spike

09-09-2008, 01:38 PM

ChrisB

09-09-2008, 04:11 PM

Do you think the BC will kick out the ERRL if we do a little tinkering with the cats???

Is it not down to the organiser to put on the race and cats and if BC dont like it they can say when the race is submitted?

I am with Rich I am sure the Surrey/SERRL will carry on with doing what they think is best....

The difference is that the ERRL has nowhere near the clout the SL does. Start running 'non-BC' events, and you'll soon see non-ERRL entrants disappear, I wager.

pottsie

09-09-2008, 05:25 PM

Do you think the BC will kick out the ERRL if we do a little tinkering with the cats???

They can't kick out the ERRL as it is not affiliated to BC.

ERRL Events are organised by clubs who are affiliated to BC.

spike

10-09-2008, 06:39 AM

The above league have events listed for 2009 on the BC web Rider H Q with 1/2 and 3/4

NO E RIDERS......

If they can so can we if thats what everyone wants.

MattN

10-09-2008, 06:14 PM

There was at least one BC race this year in the East Mids Division that was 1, 2, 3........

skipper

10-09-2008, 07:57 PM

just out of interest how many elite riders enter these events any way

spike

10-09-2008, 08:07 PM

ego_land

10-09-2008, 08:56 PM

Only 2 on Sunday....

I think we need more E/1/2/3 races and less 3/4 events and that will work best and bring up the standard of the racing....

Make all the 2/3/4 events E/1/2/3 as most 3rd cats only want to ride 3/4 events anyway....

I think I'd rather see some of the 3/4 events move to 2/3/4. I haven't run the numbers but it felt like there weren't that many of these this year, or that they weren't distributed evenly in the calendar.

Eliminate the 2/3/4's and the poor second cats will spend most of their time as fodder. Yes we want to improve the level of racing, but more 3's might be tempted into a 2/3/4 as a middle ground before diving into an E/1/2/3.

spike

11-09-2008, 06:56 AM

I do kind of agree the big thing is 2 many 3/4 races there are way to many......

I am a 2nd cat and cannot ride 3/4 races and I am happy to ride E/1/2/3 or 2/3/4 as long as I can get a local race.This year lots of times there were only 3/4 races on.

It will not change unless the clubs want to put on diffrent cat races if at the meeting they just fight over dates thats no good they need to look at changing some of the race cats....

Rob J

11-09-2008, 12:37 PM

IJF

11-09-2008, 01:26 PM

As a 2nd cat myself im in favour of the above, i dont mind not having 2/3/4's or 1/2/3's etc etc...... but it is hard for organisers to run two events at once, you have to find 2 sets of pretty much everything. There is also a rule which states how long the circuit must be for two races to take place at once, which will restrict this to some of our current circuits.

txorme

11-09-2008, 01:45 PM

you'd think that the E1's, having beaten most of the locals would look further afield for tougher events.

lombywill

11-09-2008, 01:54 PM

You want more races and you want to improve the level of racing. You'll get that if you have two types of race, run on the same day:

E/1/2
3/4

It's been shown that you can run two races on the same circuit on the same day but I'd be curious to know how much more of a hassle it is for organisers to do this?

If you look back 11 pages this is what I am trying to achieve!!! :mad:
Still no takers! Unfortunately I feel that many of the race organisers are not racers and therefore are oblivious to the debate.

you'd think that the E1's, having beaten most of the locals would look further afield for tougher events.

That's not the point! They shouldn't have to go to Outer Mongolia to race just because they are a bit better or train more. Yes they should race the big races, but shouldn't have to go to Yorkshire every week. Now if we had proper regional development teams instead of sponsored 2nd and 3rd cats this might not be an issue, but that is a whole different debate, and to be honest, this one is annoying me enough as it is!

I expect to see all who posted at the ERRL AGM. Which is annoyingly after the Region AGM when the date fixing is. You have been served notice. :)

Nick E

11-09-2008, 07:04 PM

.....Still no takers! Unfortunately I feel that many of the race organisers are not racers and therefore are oblivious to the debate.
Well, i like racing, and i'm an organiser......
I'd love to race at a higher level but find it difficult. And don't say train more or enter a sportive. If all 3rd's did that BC would lose at least half of it's membership. Like it or not that's a fact.
I'd like to feel by becoming an organiser i'm giving you riders some of "what you want". In my limited experience most participants in my promoted events enjoyed the day out. Didn't whinge about categories, distance, points etc.

Most posts in this thread is based on the individual's preferences and we're all doing what i said would happen at the date-fixing meeting...every man for them selves.

I think i remember saying very early on in this thread E/1/2 & a 3/4 on every other weekend and then a 2/3/4 on the other.
This caters for the E/1/2's who want top-class racing on a regular basis.
The 2/3/4's who want to "mix it" with the upper ranks.
And the 3/4's who want to take part in races because they enjoy it and for those aspiring to be 2nd's.

Simple.....isn't it?
Can the next post at least agree? Or have i missed the point entirely?!
Are we looking for a solution or are we just sounding off? Personally, i'd like to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

lombywill

11-09-2008, 07:09 PM

Well, i like racing, and i'm an organiser......
...

I think i remember saying very early on in this thread E/1/2 & a 3/4 on every other weekend and then a 2/3/4 on the other.
This caters for the E/1/2's who want top-class racing on a regular basis.
The 2/3/4's who want to "mix it" with the upper ranks.
And the 3/4's who want to take part in races because they enjoy it and for those aspiring to be 2nd's.

I like racing (sometimes) and I'm an organiser (First promotion age 21, might as well get that out there!), Hence why I feel my comments are justified.

Sounds good to me.

Nick E

11-09-2008, 07:24 PM

Sounds good to me.
Great! A fellow organiser in agreement!
Who's next?
All we need is a few more and we might get this off the ground!

IJF

12-09-2008, 08:56 AM

As a racer, and as a 2nd cat, this system sounds worth while, we just have to fit it to suit i guess with some organiser preferences

Alan Lawrence

12-09-2008, 10:25 AM

Nick....your suggestion sounds good to me !! http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

Gladerunner

12-09-2008, 12:07 PM

Do you honestly think any ERRL organiser would risk putting on an E.1.2 League race, when they know that will mean a half full (If lucky) start sheet?

pottsie

12-09-2008, 12:12 PM

Nick your idea is a good one, but unless both the events are on the same course in Essex, or in one of the other counties, there may be a problem with the Accredited Marshals and their signs (not enough of them for two separate races).

racyrich

12-09-2008, 12:23 PM

Do you honestly think any ERRL organiser would risk putting on an E.1.2 League race, when they know that will mean a half full (If lucky) start sheet?

Isn't that due to separate, known issues? Like the BC listing not making clear the eligibility situation. Also there being other Elite cat races in the same end of the country, plus 2nds being too scared to ride and in some instances having an alternative.
I like the idea of alternating E1/2/3 + 3/4 weekends with 2/3 weekends. Should mean hopefully 2nds will enter the real races.

GrahamG

12-09-2008, 01:25 PM

They are E123 at the moment and from my own experience the usual result are reduced fields as Gladerunner correctly states. The missing riders are by and large 3rd cats not 2nd, by making them E12 you bar the few 3rd cats who do ride, resulting in even smaller fields. Wasn't the suggestion to have E123 and reduce the number of 3/4 races? (assuming its not going to be practical to run two events on the same day too often).

Also, on the earlier point, I think you should retain some 234s, it a bit of leap going from Regional Bs straight to National Bs. If you don't have the middle step aren't you going to have even more perpetual thirds.

Also, why not be creative and have some (perhaps all cat handicaps/australian pursuit races) to bookend the season, or is everyone obsessed with BC points.

Isn't the key problem the calendar being a bit sparodic, to echo the points made by several people? Lots of views here but I suppose we need a bit more co-ordination - how best to go about it? A pre meeting meeting? - argh!!

spike

12-09-2008, 03:03 PM

The races only get reduced fields if you give the lower cats an easy option if you make the E/1/2/3 race the only race on it will hopefully get a bigger field.....

If you let the 3/4 and to some extent 2nds have an easy option they will take it....

Nick E

12-09-2008, 07:47 PM

As a racer, and as a 2nd cat, this system sounds worth while, we just have to fit it to suit i guess with some organiser preferences
Hopefully we can all accomodate each other at the meeting.

Nick....your suggestion sounds good to me !! http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif
Cheers Alan, perhaps you can come out and play in 2009 too???

Nick your idea is a good one, but unless both the events are on the same course in Essex, or in one of the other counties, there may be a problem with the Accredited Marshals and their signs (not enough of them for two separate races).
As a previous message on this thread said, there are only a few courses in this area that can handle 2 races at the same time. I hope organisers/clubs offer to cater for this type of event. It would accomodate what most of us want.

If you let the 3/4 and to some extent 2nds have an easy option they will take it....
Too right! I like racing, i enjoy it, i wouldn't like sitting in and hanging out of my #### and then getting dropped 20 mins into a race that i paid £15 to enter and £30 to travel to. If this happens regularly then riders will go for TT's instead.
The idea's to cater for all levels, not just higher category riders. Our levies, memberships and licences count too!

Alan Lawrence

13-09-2008, 02:40 PM

Cheers Alan, perhaps you can come out and play in 2009 too???I intend on racing next year Nick and look forward to hanging on the back of the bunch with ya !! http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/Thumbup.gif

PNuT

13-09-2008, 06:07 PM

There was at least one BC race this year in the East Mids Division that was 1, 2, 3........

i rode this earlier in the season.... http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/site/BC/roa/road_results.asp?evt_cp=7&evt_mode=1&evt_id=%7B62276D1A-2B94-4164-8E5F-A5C565A2603D%7D&evt_seriesid=&evt_myevents=No&RefID=&RefType=&evt_year=2008&evt_month=6&evt_kw=&evt_regions=All+Regions&evt_disc=&evt_class=&evt_cat=1st&evt_series=&evt_resultspp=40

Nick E

13-09-2008, 07:43 PM

I intend on racing next year Nick and look forward to hanging on the back of the bunch with ya !! http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/Thumbup.gif
Look forward to it...that's if we have any 3/4 events left!

Alan Lawrence

16-09-2008, 09:32 PM

going back to my orginal post, has anyone from the VCR seen my question?

Re; VCR event date 2009.

This will be confirmed after our Club Management Team meeting which is scheduled for the 15-Sept. http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

Regional A event, Peldon circuit on 19th April. http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/Thumbup.gif

txorme

17-09-2008, 01:25 PM

Is it possible to post on here the dates, cat., and promoting club of those races already submitted ?

lombywill

17-09-2008, 02:00 PM

Thanks Alan. That means it looks like the Glade race will be Easter Sunday, but I have to consult the board first.

I have also learned that the extended course we would need to run two races has been denied so it will only be the one race this year. I'd like to thank to the Pottsies for having look for us.

Is it possible to post on here the dates, cat., and promoting club of those races already submitted ?

That was the original idea of this thread! Best do a new one.

needmorespeed

17-09-2008, 08:15 PM

I have also learned that the extended course we would need to run two races has been denied so it will only be the one race this year.

Some people have no sense of adventure.
That next section of road has not seen a car for years I reckon.

spike

17-09-2008, 08:30 PM

I am so pleased one large hill is quite enough thanks!

pottsie

18-09-2008, 10:22 AM

Some people have no sense of adventure.
That next section of road has not seen a car for years I reckon.

Well it saw 2 last Sunday ours and the 1 we had to very carefully negotiate to save ending up in the ditch, the road is not wide enough for two cars to pass without both going half way on the grass and that was on the wider section.

Nickie

18-09-2008, 10:30 AM

Is it possible to post on here the dates, cat., and promoting club of those races already submitted ?

I have put in for 22nd March E/1/2/3 Interbike Road Race.

Nickie

txorme

18-09-2008, 01:55 PM

I have put in for 22nd March E/1/2/3 Interbike Road Race.

Nickie

Thanks Nickie. I was hoping Derek could list whats been submitted already so we could see any overlap or gaps and look at the catagories before the meeting.

needmorespeed

18-09-2008, 05:27 PM

Well it saw 2 last Sunday ours and the 1 we had to very carefully negotiate to save ending up in the ditch, the road is not wide enough for two cars to pass without both going half way on the grass and that was on the wider section.

Can we not make that bit of road one way? (our way that is)

Nick E

18-09-2008, 07:17 PM

Thanks Nickie. I was hoping Derek could list whats been submitted already so we could see any overlap or gaps and look at the catagories before the meeting.
Perhaps we can all turn up at the date-fixing meeting as we've all got something to say???
Then i guess Derek will post it afterwards.

David Mclean

18-09-2008, 08:00 PM

Nick E

18-09-2008, 09:43 PM

spike

19-09-2008, 06:53 AM

Great idea Dave, not sure if the 3rd's would go for it though.
Even though i liked hanging onto your back wheel at Lotus Series i'm not sure whether it'll be fun week in-week out!

The 3rds will have no choice if thats the only race that or TT.....

gordon

19-09-2008, 08:23 AM

Shame about the 4ths though...

Roz

19-09-2008, 11:39 AM

Having just got back from two weeks in France, I have a lot of catching up to do. Rather than waiting for the " bun fight " at the BC. agm., is it possible for organisers to list the dates they are "requesting", on the forum. This would indicate any possible gaps. I have requested 29th. March for Dengie Marshes Tour - Nat B, E/1/2/3.

Brad Lamb

19-09-2008, 01:13 PM

The Victoria C.C. have requested the 13th September, 2009.
Regional B (3/4/J)
Same course
Distance............if only I could bribe Mr & Mrs Potts. I could do wine, even Lake Garda. Take your pick. Otherwise 96km.

needmorespeed

19-09-2008, 05:34 PM

Can't you just make all the races E123 and give ERRL points, BC Points, money, trophies and glory to riders from each category. 4 races in one peleton, that way Elites can race every week as well as the others (all 5 of them). Its probably a bit radical but thats how they do it in France anyway.

Sometimes our prize giving lasts longer than the actual race, we have so many categorys.

Dave,

This is the way it should be done, but it is the 5min. rule that stops it working, as most 3rds know they will never be allowed to finish a race.
We need more lead cars so that it is safer to have more groups, and bigger circuits so that we cause less congestion.
3/4 cat races could be run every week at Hog Hill.

needmorespeed

19-09-2008, 05:40 PM

Can't a calendar be put on the forum now showing all the weekends of the racing season so that organizers can fill in the dates they want, leaving less to do at the date fixing.

big hairy tracky

19-09-2008, 06:12 PM

What do we want here a club run with commissaires for a sprint finish !!!!
Come on lads just get yourselves fit, and try mixing it a bit.
I know I aint done much the last 4 years but I hope to be fit for next year and I for one wont shirk out of competing against 1st or elites !

Nick E

19-09-2008, 06:15 PM

The 3rds will have no choice if thats the only race that or TT.....
You keep going on and on about the same thing but you're missing the point....they will do TT's instead. It will be at their pace whatever the time/distance. Not at some Elite rider's pace!

BC won't sanction that as they'll lose alot of their membership....who are 3rd's!

Roz

19-09-2008, 06:15 PM

Can't a calendar be put on the forum now showing all the weekends of the racing season so that organizers can fill in the dates they want, leaving less to do at the date fixing.

I said the same thing somewhere in this huge forum labyrinth. Its not my expertise, so can the boffins form an orderly queue & do it please.

Nick E

19-09-2008, 06:17 PM

Can't a calendar be put on the forum now showing all the weekends of the racing season so that organizers can fill in the dates they want, leaving less to do at the date fixing.
Isn't that the point of the date-fixing meeting???

Roz

19-09-2008, 06:23 PM

Isn't that the point of the date-fixing meeting???

The BC Eastern Region meeting on the 26th. is the AGM & not just to decide what races & when. The idea of having the calendar as suggested, is to save time at the AGM. Nothing would be finalised till the AGM

Nick E

19-09-2008, 07:41 PM

The BC Eastern Region meeting on the 26th. is the AGM & not just to decide what races & when.
Point taken Alan.
It's when Derek finalises the calendar based on opinions and comments made by people at the AGM, not on this forum.
Derek made a point just before last year's AGM of telling organisers to attend to guarantee their dates.

spike

19-09-2008, 07:58 PM

You keep going on and on about the same thing but you're missing the point....they will do TT's instead. It will be at their pace whatever the time/distance. Not at some Elite rider's pace!

BC won't sanction that as they'll lose alot of their membership....who are 3rd's!

Its got nothing to do with BC if the eastern region makes the racing harder by mainly putting on races for the higher cats! ie E/1/2/3 I am not saying have no 3/4 races its just we have so many!

Nick E

19-09-2008, 08:29 PM

I am not saying have no 3/4 races its just we have so many!
That's probably to do with the amount of 3/4's we have in this area.
If you're about next Friday the number of E/1/2/3/4 & Jun riders we have in BC Eastern is usually mentioned at the AGM.

spike

20-09-2008, 06:56 AM

That's probably to do with the amount of 3/4's we have in this area.
If you're about next Friday the number of E/1/2/3/4 & Jun riders we have in BC Eastern is usually mentioned at the AGM.

Ok,I will stop going on about it.I was not aware we had lots more 3rd cats in our region than the other cats, that being the case I guess we should have a lot of 3/4 races and maybe a few more 2/3/4 races to gently push the 3rds along.....and try to slowly bring up the overall standard in our region.The last chance has a full field and its only got 14 2nd cats the rest are 3/4 riders so they dont mind rideing with 2nd cats so that might be the way to go....

Tony Asplin

20-09-2008, 10:00 AM

Here are some facts before you boys try bashing up the Calendar

This year there were:

15 Road Races for E/1/2/3
11 Criteriums for E/1/2/3

12 Road Races for 2/3/4
3 Criteriums for 2/3/4

16 Road Races 3/4
7 Criteriums for 3/4

Eastern Region Riders in National Category Events

Elite Points Scorers=10
1st Points Scorers=22
2nd Points Scorers=49
3rd Points Scorers=11

Eastern Region Riders Regional Category Events

2nd Points Scorers=74
3rd Points Scorers=100
4th Points Scorers=44

There must still be a large amount of 3rd and 4th Category Riders who have not scored any points.

The following Club and Teams put on more than 1 day of racing

Lee Valley Youth 3 days
Team Economic Energy 3 days
Glendene CC 3 days (although one got cancelled this year)
Whitewebbs CC 2 days
VC Barrachi 2 days
West Suffolk Wheelers 2 days
Southend Wheelers 2 days
Essex Roads CC 2 days
Colchester Rovers 2 days

The rest of the Clubs and Teams only put on one day of racing just to fulfill their Eastern Road Race obligation to be members.

If you need more events for the higher category riders then get your club to put on more races and also add to the Commissaires and Race Officials List.

Tony Asplin

MattN

20-09-2008, 10:19 AM

Yes, St Ives CC "only" put on one race to fulfill our ERRL obligation.....forget the 2 Open TT's, the NCRA Series Road Race, the N&DCA TT we organised, the MTB race and, tomorrow, the LVRC road race.......

And for future reference, whatever Nick E says - I agree! Until I say otherwise!

Nick E

21-09-2008, 07:00 PM

And for future reference, whatever Nick E says - I agree! Until I say otherwise!
Cheers Matt!

... I guess we should have a lot of 3/4 races and maybe a few more 2/3/4 races to gently push the 3rds along...
Cheers Spike! I don't mind being pushed along:-)

Here are some facts before you boys try bashing up the Calendar..
Many thanks Mr Asplin! Check out those stats!
I honestly thought there were plenty more 3/4 races than E/1/2/3 races. Looks like it's just about even. Perhaps there's certain times throughout the calendar where there aren't any E/1/2/3 races for 3 or 4 weeks, then 2 or 3 in sucession. If they were spread out evenly perhaps that would keep everybody happy???

Dave T

21-09-2008, 07:15 PM

Please don't overlook the fact that there are also clubs who promote more than one road race on the same day.

Nick E

27-09-2008, 07:43 PM

Well...
Many thanks to those who came out last night to have a say at the Eastern Region BC AGM and date-fixing meeting. It's good to see that there are so many people passionate enough about the sport.

And for those who whinged on this thread and didn't bother to turn up, you can now keep quiet as you weren't prepared to put your money where your mouth was!

For the record the calendar was prepared and the meeting was in agreement that it was fair...to all category riders, i'm sure Joan will add it to this forum soon.

Thanks again.