New Clubs for 2006

[ChrisB]

So far, I'm aware of three clubs who are intending to join the ERRL for 2006, suject to the required race promotions. We have:

Mission Racing
Team Economic Energy
VC Norwich

It's good to see the membership continue to grow after the new additions (Angliasport, East Anglian CC and St Ives CC) this year.

[dds11]

Do we need more races?
I'd be interested to know what others think - based on my experience of trying to find a date for the Ike Saul (having missed the date fixing meetings) it seemed to me that we have a pretty full calendar in the ERRL and East in general.

[ChrisB]

Get the point you need to be a first cat, Digby, and then see if we have too many races.

[dds11]

I think others would agree that we could have some more 1st cat races.
When do we discuss this stuff? The date fixing meet is this Friday.

[David Mclean]

I think others would agree that we could have some more 1st cat races.
When do we discuss this stuff? The date fixing meet is this Friday.
I for one would like to see some more 1st cat races in the ERRL (as I am one). You can always run a 1st and 3rd cat race on the same day if you make it open to non ERRL 1st cats.

[speedyshaun]

I think others would agree that we could have some more 1st cat races.
When do we discuss this stuff? The date fixing meet is this Friday.

Think Chris brought this up last year, just look at the calendar, i rode 2 league races this year could have ridden 5 all season, there's nothing for elites. vertually all the races in East Anglia are now in the league. If you're any higher than a 2nd cat you better by a diesel cos you'll be driving along way to race, unless there's a big change. Most organisers are happy with their 2/3/4 races, how many were not full fields this year :?:

[ChrisB]

Exactly. With more clubs, and newer clubs, we can 'request' that races are promoted to cater more for 1sts and 3rds. 2nd cats have it too easy in the league - too many races, not enough competition. Ultimately, I'd like to see two league races every weekend, providing regular, local races for 1sts, 2nds and 3rds. To achieve this, we need more member clubs.

[Alan Lawrence]

Exactly. With more clubs, and newer clubs, we can 'request' that races are promoted to cater more for 1sts and 3rds. 2nd cats have it too easy in the league - too many races, not enough competition. Ultimately, I'd like to see two league races every weekend, providing regular, local races for 1sts, 2nds and 3rds. To achieve this, we need more member clubs.

...er Chris I think the league may as well go the full way and open up to Elites as well or all the current and future 1st cats in the league will have it too easy as well. :!: :wink:

[ChrisB]

Small moves, Al. Can't achieve world domination overnight.

The way I'd love to see the League end up: Most local clubs join. Most weekends, we'd either have a pair of 1/2/3 & 3/4 races (same promotion, or on other sides of the region) or a single 2/3/4 event, with priority to Leauge riders. For one week a month, we have a 'prestige' event that is completely open. This could be a BC National Series event (Prem, Buckley etc) or a stage race. All clubs chip in and help. To incorporate Elites, perhaps we'd have to run open E/1/2 events occasionally instead of the League 1/2/3.

In fact, the future of League 1/2/3 events is currently unclear with the new BC Comp. framework - we might have to scrap the current idea of league priority for those. I'll draft a motion for the AGM to cover this eventuality.

One thing I do feel strongly about is that we don't have enough 3/4 and 1/2 events. As I say, too many lazy second cats getting fat on easy points :wink:

[dds11]

When is the ERRL AGM?
And is it possible to do the date fixing in advance of that meeting?
Because I haven't been to either before I'm not sure how it's going to work.

[ChrisB]

Peter Little normally handles the AGM - I haven't had word yet. If you go to the BC date fixing meeting, then that should take care of any clashes. Notice of the ERRL AGM will be posted on the website with sufficient notice to get any motions submitted.

[pottsie]

It would be very nice to have more events, but 2 on the same day, where are you going to get the commissaires and other officials? If you want that then you will have to find people to train as commissaires. We do not have any commissaires in training at the moment and it takes at least a year to become qualified.

[Alan Lawrence]

Small moves, Al. Can't achieve world domination overnight.

The way I'd love to see the League end up: Most local clubs join. Most weekends, we'd either have a pair of 1/2/3 & 3/4 races (same promotion, or on other sides of the region) or a single 2/3/4 event, with priority to Leauge riders. For one week a month, we have a 'prestige' event that is completely open. This could be a BC National Series event (Prem, Buckley etc) or a stage race. All clubs chip in and help. To incorporate Elites, perhaps we'd have to run open E/1/2 events occasionally instead of the League 1/2/3.

In fact, the future of League 1/2/3 events is currently unclear with the new BC Comp. framework - we might have to scrap the current idea of league priority for those. I'll draft a motion for the AGM to cover this eventuality.

One thing I do feel strongly about is that we don't have enough 3/4 and 1/2 events. As I say, too many lazy second cats getting fat on easy points :wink:

....all sounds good to me Chris and agree with what you say etc. :!: :wink:

[Alan Lawrence]

It would be very nice to have more events, but 2 on the same day, where are you going to get the commissaires and other officials? If you want that then you will have to find people to train as commissaires. We do not have any commissaires in training at the moment and it takes at least a year to become qualified.

....I have to say that having more commissaires/officials is far more an important issue then worrying about more races etc, we must not forget without these key people there would be no racing for us riders. :!: :wink:

[Sean Sumner]

The trouble is Alan that you don't have to worry about races.

I've a cr*p year with illness and injury, but even if I had been going full guns, I would have to travel to find races.

As today is my 40th birthday, I am now eligible for LVRC so I will ride those local races, not get BC points and drop down to second cat, so that I can race more BC races the following year in the league.

I agree with what you say about the commissaires/officials and I really appreciate what Brian et al do.

[ChrisB]

Clubs that actually have 1st cats (Cambridge, Interbike) might want to consider changing their promotions 1/2/3 status...

[notsoracy rich]

On the BC rankings section, I can only find 20 or 21 riders from ERRL clubs in the Ist cat section.
At the moment we have 28 clubs in the ERRL.

While I don't mind clubs promoting EXTRA races to cater for the 1st cat minority, I don't think we should do this at the expense of 3rd and 4th cat races.

The ERRL was originally set up to provide races for 3rd cat riders as they were finding it difficult getting accepted for races outside the region. The 1st cats were always considered to be competitive enough to travel to races, after all, as you improve there are always going to be less of the higher categories.

From reading the forums it seems to me that a lot of 1st /2nd cats only race when they feel like it ,so providing races will not necessarily mean that they will bother to enter.

At the bottom end of the ability range which is where I come in I have found 3/4 cat races are generally oversubscribed, and any 2/3/4 races have very few 4th cat riders because they don't have a race when they get blown out of the back in the neutralised zone.

We should be providing more races for 3/4 cats before we think of adding extra races for 1st cats let alone changing existing races to allow this minority of 1st cats to dominate.

Was it only a year ago when this topic last surfaced?

[speedyshaun]

Clubs that actually have 1st cats (Cambridge, Interbike) might want to consider changing their promotions 1/2/3 status...

I put this to Patrick at the beginning of the season, but like he said, his event has always been a success as a 2/3/4 so why change for a minority of riders, maybe next season, but both Glen Stanford and myself have been feed up with the lack of races within a 2 hour drive for 1st cats during the past 2 seasons so were dropping down, leaving Silver Sumner the sole interbike 1st cat.

With the new points system, isn't it 200 points to gain a 1st cat licence and 100 to keep it, won't be many riders higher than 2nd cat in 2007 anyway.

[ChrisB]

While I don't mind clubs promoting EXTRA races to cater for the 1st cat minority, I don't think we should do this at the expense of 3rd and 4th cat races.

The ERRL was originally set up to provide races for 3rd cat riders as they were finding it difficult getting accepted for races outside the region. The 1st cats were always considered to be competitive enough to travel to races, after all, as you improve there are always going to be less of the higher categories.

At the bottom end of the ability range which is where I come in I have found 3/4 cat races are generally oversubscribed, and any 2/3/4 races have very few 4th cat riders because they don't have a race when they get blown out of the back in the neutralised zone.

We should be providing more races for 3/4 cats before we think of adding extra races for 1st cats let alone changing existing races to allow this minority of 1st cats to dominate.

Was it only a year ago when this topic last surfaced?

I agree Rich - my original point was that there were too many 2/3 races, and not enough of either 1/2/3 OR 3/4 races.

Going back to 1st cat races, you're doing the more ambitious 2nd cat no favours by only allowing them to race against other 2nd cats most of the time. Back when I got my first cat licence, I made sure that the majority of the points I got for my upgrade from 1/2 or E/1/2 races. So like I said, more 1/2/3 and more 3/4 races, less 2/3 races.

[Andy B]

The ERRL was originally set up to provide races for 3rd cat riders as they were finding it difficult getting accepted for races outside the region. The 1st cats were always considered to be competitive enough to travel to races, after all, as you improve there are always going to be less of the higher categories.

When the League was set up there were only 3 categories - 1st to 3rd (plus Juniors) and the object of the league was to provide racing for all but the top echelon - i.e. 2nd, 3rd and Juniors.
Most weeks there would be a 2/3 and a 3/J.
Since then of course we have got Elites and 4ths and would suggest the new 1st cats are the equivalent of the old second cats.
Has the object of the league changed? Nowadays the number of 1st cat races is very limited yet we have umpteen races for 2nds, 3rds and 4ths. Are we now descriminating against those who aren't at the top level?????

[TimW]

From reading the forums it seems to me that a lot of 1st /2nd cats only race when they feel like it ,so providing races will not necessarily mean that they will bother to enter.


First cats always feel like racing! They don't always feel like driving half way across the country every weekend to do so. It's time-consuming, expensive and knackering. I remember what I felt like after driving to Oxford, or Worcester, or Daventry, or Ashby, racing hard for 80 miles and then driving back home.

Getting to first cat is a pretty good sign that someone is taking his cycle racing seriously. Suggesting that he won't race because he can't be bothered is taking the p155.

I'll be a third cat next year for the first time in a while. Like most third cats I'll train when I have the time and I'll do a few local races when I have a free weekend. I won't be taking it too seriously. Not like when I was a first cat.

[Sean Sumner]

I want to race! I train hard. I just don't want to travel so much - family etc.

Half a day racing locally (well within 1.5 hours) is much better that a whole day, having to travel up to Yorkshire and back, especially after getting a kicking.

[ChrisB]

Another question is WHY aren't there many local first cats? We have the volume of 2/3 races to allow enough riders to get to 100 points... It's quite easy to get a decent season in, get into the 90's and stop racing. Why should people want to go up a category when there are next to no local races for them? Perhaps if we had more local 1st cat races, we'd see more local 1st cats?

[John Ireland]

I think the reason that there aren't many 1st cats is for the very reasons Tim and others have explained - it's just very tough putting in the travel to find the races, taking a kicking (because more often than not, it's an E1), and then still be bright and cheery at work the next day.... to do it all again the next week. So there's not much incentive to get the licence. I'm sure glad to be back to 2nd - however much i like the idea of being a 1st and racing with the big boys each week.

This in turn means that the top ten of many of our 2/3 races are guys who probably would be 1st cats, so you end up with a 2-tier race anyway i.e. break going on the first or second lap, only being seen again if a couple of us missed it.

Good news though that new clubs are interested in our league, which will hopefully mean we can have more diverse racing.

[notsoracy rich]

This topic is still red hot isn't it. :twisted:

[Andy B]

Of course the ERRL 1st cats have it easier than the old ERRL 2nd Cats. In the old days the 2nd cats could come from all over the country (space permitting of course) whereas now the 1st Cats only have to compete against other ERRL 1st Cats. Could be they are picking up points too easily and get upgraded.
Is this a case for opening up the top category to non-ERRL again?

[ChrisB]

Of course the ERRL 1st cats have it easier than the old ERRL 2nd Cats. In the old days the 2nd cats could come from all over the country (space permitting of course) whereas now the 1st Cats only have to compete against other ERRL 1st Cats. Could be they are picking up points too easily and get upgraded.
Is this a case for opening up the top category to non-ERRL again?

Perhaps if you'd attended the AGM or read the minutes, you'd know that this HAS happened, and all 1st cat races this season were open to all 1sts. This might not have been clear from some of the handbook entries, which went in before the AGM.

[ChrisB]

I think the reason that there aren't many 1st cats is for the very reasons Tim and others have explained - it's just very tough putting in the travel to find the races, taking a kicking (because more often than not, it's an E1), and then still be bright and cheery at work the next day.... to do it all again the next week. So there's not much incentive to get the licence. I'm sure glad to be back to 2nd - however much i like the idea of being a 1st and racing with the big boys each week.

This in turn means that the top ten of many of our 2/3 races are guys who probably would be 1st cats, so you end up with a 2-tier race anyway i.e. break going on the first or second lap, only being seen again if a couple of us missed it.

Good news though that new clubs are interested in our league, which will hopefully mean we can have more diverse racing.

So John, why don't you lobby Patrick with the other guys in your club and get him to make your promotion 1/2/3? A step in the right direction.

[Andy B]

Of course the ERRL 1st cats have it easier than the old ERRL 2nd Cats. In the old days the 2nd cats could come from all over the country (space permitting of course) whereas now the 1st Cats only have to compete against other ERRL 1st Cats. Could be they are picking up points too easily and get upgraded.
Is this a case for opening up the top category to non-ERRL again?

Perhaps if you'd attended the AGM or read the minutes, you'd know that this HAS happened, and all 1st cat races this season were open to all 1sts. This might not have been clear from some of the handbook entries, which went in before the AGM.

:oops:

[speedyshaun]

Surprised Gary hasn't joined in yet, Bet he's done some miles this year - in a car...........

[John Ireland]

Chris - i did try last year and we were close - but in the end the fear was that it would scare off too many entries. This year we were just glad to have a race... but best keep our dirty laundry off the air.

[ChrisB]

Considering how your promotion panned out this year, I think you've got every right to dictate how it's run next year. Look at all the other 1/2/3 races this year - Lea Valley - full field. Api - full field. Andrews Trophy - full field. You're not going to scare anyone off!

[notsoracy rich]

Sorry chaps, looks like I made a mistake--I got the 1st cat riders from last years BC rankings.
There are in fact 14 1st cat riders in ERRL clubs,including my hero who is not related to me at all.
:oops:

[racyrich]

Hi all. Just catching up after a very pleasant week in Madrid.

Without wishing to be too offensive to anyone concerned, most of the local 1sts are well past the age when they're ambitious and keen to progress. It's unfortunate that with the current points system it's pretty easy to get 100 points. Maybe next year that'll change, I haven't been too bothered about working out its effect. I'll just ride the races I fancy; if they're too far away, too hard, too boring, too hilly, involve getting up too early, don't serve good enough tea, etc etc, I won't be there :-)

I just feel sorry for the Tom Gardners of the world. Plenty of talent, but the racing scene for good riders is too depressing to get motivated for. And going abroad is not some panacea, expecially if you're brainy and have decent career prospects here.

[dds11]

So what cat shall I make the Ike Saul for next year then?

We've gone for the 23rd July 2006 (an empty slot at the meeting).
I think all the other races that were already on the calendar were pretty much as last year.
One new event is Team Economic Energy - promoted by Ed Graefe. He has gone for a 1/2/3 so I think that will be one more 1/2/3 in the ERRL next year.

I'll post a message with a vote so you can select the cat you think we should go for!

[Andy B]

Hi all. Just catching up after a very pleasant week in Madrid.

Without wishing to be too offensive to anyone concerned, most of the local 1sts are well past the age when they're ambitious and keen to progress. It's unfortunate that with the current points system it's pretty easy to get 100 points. Maybe next year that'll change, I haven't been too bothered about working out its effect. I'll just ride the races I fancy; if they're too far away, too hard, too boring, too hilly, involve getting up too early, don't serve good enough tea, etc etc, I won't be there :-)

I just feel sorry for the Tom Gardners of the world. Plenty of talent, but the racing scene for good riders is too depressing to get motivated for. And going abroad is not some panacea, expecially if you're brainy and have decent career prospects here.

Oi - you calling me old?

[racyrich]

Oi - you calling me old?

I'll call you some other things if you prefer :P